Call from Homeland Security...

Discuss night vision equipment and technology

Moderator: Michael

Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Stanley » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:30 am

Michael,

With all due respect, I do not believe the forum should be opened up to any governmental agency or agents, to be used as a platform for intimidation. Intimidation is not acceptable on this forum, not by the members, any other entity or individual for any reason. Whether the excuse be safety, security or any other, this type of intrusion is not justifiable.

This is your forum but I strongly object.

You are in the unique position to check the over reaching power of those who wish to over step the bounds of their positions, positions which are prone to be abused. The actions of this agent are appalling, unjustified and could very well be illegal. I can't stop this but you can.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby hugh » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:05 am

Looks to me like there is a problem understanding the FDA rules here. class III infrared laser aiming devices require a variance to be sold to anyone including the military period. Now ALL variances say as one of the conditions that the buyer must except before they can be sold to them "The sales of these laser aiming sights shall be restricted to government, military and Iaw enforcement agencies under a direct purchase order from the agency and shall not be sold to individual law enforcement personnel." also on later variances "A statement that resale of these products is restricted to government, military, or law enforcement agencies under a direct purchase order and shall not be sold to individual law enforcement officers". Looks like the reason for the second statement was to make it very clear that a resale is still a sale.

The above tales me if a person has a AN/P*Q-** infrared laser aiming device FDA rules have been broken, and the government can take it back. It looks to me like it does not matter if the unit has a very readable name plate or no name plate , it's theirs, as they were never sold without the variance. I don't like it either, but it is the rule. :arrow:

reference http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys ... /vra1a.pdf
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:29 am

Hi Michael,

Good post. I think people tend to forget conversations such as this are in public and are effectively open to anyone, even law enforcement officers and I'm glad that these officers are going the friendly way about their request instead of walking in and taking servers which would result in an outage for us all. It's far more common to seize servers as evidence than many would believe.

I think also that people forget these forums are frequented by such officers, not because they have an interest in hunting down possible felons, but because many of them are actively involved in the NV community and are some of the people who help us with our questions. ( No, I am not one... I am just a civilian ) Just because someone does not share with everyone what they do for a living doesn't mean they are hiding anything.

So I hope we all remember that we're a community here... Half the people involved are military or government and many are involved in LE activities.

And Michael, Thankyou for speaking to those involved to confirm the inquiries were legitimate - I know my first thoughts on how things were described was that it sounded an aweful lot like a scam. It's good to know that wasn't the case :)

Regards
David
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Dino1130 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:36 pm

:D
Last edited by Dino1130 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 11 times in total.
I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Dino1130 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:29 pm

:D
Last edited by Dino1130 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:19 pm, edited 6 times in total.
I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Dino1130 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:36 pm

D-tap :roll:
I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Dino1130 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:16 am

:D
Last edited by Dino1130 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Stanley » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:49 am

[color=#000040]It is time to do the American thing and take these agents to task over their conduct.

If there is anyone willing to help collect all the post they've made as well as private messages and emails to various forum members over on ARFCOM or anywhere else so that I can send it to a some people who just might be interested in their actions. The more that can be collected the better. Hopefully everyone who's been denied their basics rights laid forth in the bill of rights will be willing to help stop these individuals.

Send me all pertinent information through a PM
Last edited by Stanley on Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Dino1130 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:54 am

:D
Last edited by Dino1130 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Dino1130 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:36 am

Hugh, I owe you a sincere apology. I thought you were our invited guest. It was brought to my attention I was wrong. Very sorry ! :oops:
I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Michael » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:58 am

I am going to reiterate one more time, keep the discussion on this forum reasonable and responsible at all times. So far I have not seen any "intimidation" going on here or on AR15.com by either of the agents, while a number of responses to them border on the ridiculous. I am open to reasonable discussion on this board by all parties involved. So, why don't we give the agents the chance to explain the situation, their position and responsibility. This is NOT a discussion on what we think about any specific law or restriction, but rather a discussion on how that impacts what we do and like to play with/use. So, how about some courtesy and a chance for them to participate in the conversation before all the bashing and rhetoric (neither of which I will tolerate). Let them state the LEGAL situation, which is a necessary information for those who have or are considering purchasing the relevant products in the future.
Michael
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Dino1130 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:17 pm

:D
Last edited by Dino1130 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby hugh » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:59 pm

Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Dino1130 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:36 am
Hugh, I owe you a sincere apology. I thought you were our invited guest. It was brought to my attention I was wrong. Very sorry ! :oops:

Dino, my intent was to inform people of what I believe is the legal status of any AN/P*Q-* laser aiming devices so they could better make decisions based on FDA rules. I think everyone who has one of the units is probable upset that they may be out a fair amount of money and a good peace of equipment . I would like to add that my interpretation of FDA rules may not be correct and am willing to learn if someone has something better.

P.S. After looking at my post again, I can understand why you may have made that mistake. Sorry for coming across a little heavy handed guys. :oops:
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby Dino1130 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:44 pm

:D
Last edited by Dino1130 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:17 pm, edited 5 times in total.
I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.
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Re: Call from Homeland Security...

Postby hugh » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:32 pm

Dino, let me state again that I am just a civilian not a agent of the government.
If you go back and read the variance you will find that one of the conditions of the variance is that the manufacture make sure that "The user information to be supplied with each laser weapon sight shall include:" "A statement that resale of these products is restricted to government, military, or law enforcement agencies under a direct purchase order and shall not be sold to individual law enforcement officers.". It looks to me that when the government buys a unit it excepts the conditions of the variance not to sell the unit to and individual.

There are two ways that and individual can obtain one, it could be stolen in which case the results are obvious, or the agency might ignore the variance, and sell it, in which case the agency is in violation of the variance they agreed to when they bought the unit. As for the individual I don't believe that he has done anything wrong, as I can find no federal law or FDA rule against and individual having a infrared laser aiming device.

PS I'm no lawyer either. :lol:
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